For information,
– ut99 : pad 50a/50% absorption, armor 100a/75% absorption, belt 150a/100%– ut2004 : small shield 50a, large shield 100a, with possibility to stack both up to 150. Absorption : 50% under 50a, 75 between 50 and 100a, 100% above 100a
– UT3 : Same than ut99 with helmet, except belt is 100a and not 150a land can be combined with the other armors to stack up to 200a
– quake live : 25/50/100a armors with same absorption equals to 2/3. Maximum armor is 200. If you have more than 100, then it will slowly decrease back to 100
Conclusion : quakelive seems simple and works apparently pretty well
The reason ql armor works well for duel is not heavily related to the absorption amounts, max stack or tickdown. Sure they play a part, but overall are not the primary reason. In addition the game (quake) really needs mega/keg to work decently in duel so the (often) suggested “just use ql armor” is broken because ql without mega the armor will be lacking. This also applies to q2.. qw.. reflex and the quake spin offs. How many duel maps have no mega? Every qw/ql duel map has mega and from memory popular q2 ones did. How many of the quake spin offs copy quake almost 100% in this aspect? Taking the armor only is not going to “fix” ut duel. Removing mega from quake duel is a sure fire way to break it.
Weapons being on a longer spawn in ut is not a substitute as a conflict for driving player interaction unless a weapon is “required” – in which case it would be considered OP.
Compare how armor+health load has progressed in q3/ql maps since 1999. Originally q3 duel maps were quite light, with maps like t2, dm6 or t4 (two 50a + 2minute mega) being popular. t4 was possibly unique in a way because the map features a long spawn weapon, something not done often in q3/ql. Early on this was because the maps that shipped with q3 we fairly lacking duel wise. As time has passed this lighter load out has fallen to the way side, with most maps sporting at minimum RA, YA, Mega and in almost all cases an extra YA or multiple GA as as more shards than earlier maps. There were some early expection, dm13 from id and bloodrun from ztn – the latter coming to the game slightly later than stock.
If you look at older quake titles you get an understanding where this lighter load out comes from. The armor system in quakeworld was tiered and binary. You pickup an armor and you have max stack for that armor type. You could trade up but not down unless the lower pickup offered more protection than your current armor type (eg 90RA replaced by 150YA). Add to this that armor respawn was 20second means having more than 2-3 armors per map was enough for duel. One RA, one YA and a GA worked ok. Quake2 had a similar system to q3/ql but with tiers. A player could stack within a tier and different tiers had different absorption+max stack. However overall maps had the medium armor type in pickups worth 50 each – much like q3.
So the previous two games were quite light on pickups and this was continued into the stock maps, nothing overly surprising there. However q3/ql moved away from that, to the point that the older maps are not really played.
What is the main ut gripe about armor and duel? Control is too strong and is too hard to break. The game snowballs too much. The defensive nature of duel is (imo) due to weapons rather than the armor, however having more, faster spawns would alleviate the problem of being destacked as the out of control player and then needing to spend an excessively large amount of time to stack back for what is a relatively small benefit. If it was possible to restack faster players could be more aggressive because losing stack would not incur such a large time penalty. In addition if there were more frequent “in control” armors the in control player can be more aggressive as well because they are less “scared” of losing stack from a failed fight.
Think of duel like a round based gametype. Each spawn cycle is a round and in order to compete the out of control player needs to spend a “round” stacking and obtaining pickups. When the next “round” starts the out of control player can then attempt to contest larger items. There is no hard reset between each round and rounds do not always proceed in the same way. Players could take more than one round to prepare to attack – if they die and have trouble obtaining a weapon and getting pads/helmet they are out of combat for longer. On the flip side the in control player has a round “reset” with belt and 100a pickups up to three times per minute.
This is a quite important point – engaging on the pickup is detrimental to the out of control player, yet not engaging on the pickup is difficult because outside of these times there is no reason for in control player to not leave. If the out of control player does not have the 100a then the in control player will contest it to ensure it is not taken.
The primary problem with armor discussions on the forum is that posters feel the root cause of problems is max stack, absorption (in a major way, not the small edge cases of 5hp belt pickups) or similar. A lot of this is based on the feels – players are frustrated when they lose a belt fight to a player that picks it up at 5hp. In reality this does not occur all that often. The topic of these discussions would “fix” the game to a degree but at the same time would remove a decent amount of potential depth. One large problem with ut armor is the difficulty in obtaining stack that adds a meaningful amount to the out of control players survive ability – this is why max stack is often the discussion point. If the max is lowered then the stack differential is less and the out of control player needs to deal less damage to have a fight on even-ish footing. Keep this in mind.
Removing all armor outside of 50a would “fix” the problems ut duel is perceived to have – it would be less snowbally. It would be easier to come back. This is because the 50a alone, without stacking does very little for the player in “control”. Having said that it is so inconsequential that players putting themselves in danger because of the 50a would be laughable. However this solution would make the game exceptionally shallow. Like ut99 with NA rules in 2000.
What is never discussed that actually matters? Respawn times, stacking “rules”, number of items, how these items influence what the players do and how the game and the potential differences between player stack.
The UT system has essentially been the same since ut99 in the way it drives fights and what the in control player is concerned with. The in control player concentrates on the two larger items and the out of control player can use the rest.
There are two ways to go here.
———
Basically you could stack yourself temporarily to 200 hp and 200 armor which would slowly decrease to 100 each, forcing you to keep maintaining control while still having an edge over the opponent.
Let me requote cunni regarding quake armor.
quake live : 25/50/100a armors with same absorption equals to 2/3. Maximum armor is 200. If you have more than 100, then it will slowly decrease back to 100
His conclusion is that “quake live is the best” and the numbers/details provided is this quote are assumed to cover everything great/relevant about the system. Since it is without a doubt the best.
1. There are three armors
2. Absorption is 2/3
3. Maximum armor is 200
4. Decay over 100
And you have selected decay as the primary reason quakelive armor system is good. Decay does not cause the bold section of your quote to occur. It forces nothing. Self stacking (after taking damage) or denial are the primary reasons for pickup up stuff. You can maintain 200 stack with 25 armor pickup per “cycle”, which is nothing. The shards hallway on ztn keeps you at 200. This is the extent of how unimportant decay is. You want stack advantage over your opponent so you take it to increase yours and decrease what they have available – this is what “forces” the game to flow the way it does.
Not decay.
Having said that none of the stats that cunni has listed play a huge role in why ql armor is good for duel, however it is unlikely a discussion would actually occur outside of the narrow view of max stack or absorption.
Not to say that I don’t think quakelive armor/health is good for quakelive (or even ut) duel, but the reasons given to use it are strongly lacking in cunnis post. Case in point “Decay forces you to keep control” as discussed above. Decay was added to limit heavy +back without contesting pickups which appeared in some later q2 competitions. It did not really achieve this in q3 as 100/100 is enough to play quite defensively.
It does not make players behave the way you think it does. It is overall a very minor aspect of the system, which I would not be against but does not make the ql armor setup the amazing system that it is.
Just grabbing the armor from ql and dropping it in ut will not fix the situation because the mega is also quite important to the whole shebang. In fact I would almost argue that ql armor only in ut could be worse because it lacks mega – ql armor only in ut could have some unintended consequences
Now health packs and vials are more part of the strategy. In that sens, it is more complex.
Health packs and vials have always played a part in the “strategy”. However neither of these items have the ability to reliably setup fights in duel every ~30 seconds or so. Health packs can have influence over player behavior which could be useful, but not in a horns clashing manner of larger armors or health.
Armor and mega/keg pickups create focus points for players – they create fights and drive player interaction. Quad does the same thing in TDM. Without these pickups there is little reason for players to fight which was one of the major showdown gripes that was never really addressed. These are really the only items that do this. You could argue that ut is played with weaponstay off and thus weapons can also make this occur (making up for no mega), however unless there is one weapon that players must turn up for every single spawn (ie it is OP) it becomes difficult. There are too many weapons, it would be similar to breaking out armor to 8 pickups per map – it does not focus players enough. They can never drive fights reliably as armor/mega. We have over 15 years of duels to look at and the only example I have ever seen cited is controling lg+shock on rankin in 2k4 – and that is as an alternative control “method” rather than the lg/shock actually creating fights.
What you need to look at:
1. Respawn times
2. Number of items
3. Item split for in/out of control players
4. Stack differential over time between both players.
5. Cost to time spend of pickups – this applies to players spending time bothering to pick up the item as well as contesting it. eg players will contest the belt but rarely contest the helmet.
6. Amount of time each player dedicates to building/maintaining stack and thus how much time they have available
Duel is heavily about time and controlling what players can and cannot do to each other by offering them options that pull them away from just shooting their opponent. This might sound counter intuitive
Define “in control.”
Traditionally from ut99 onwards I would say control is when one player has the “big” and “second big” armors and is making the pickups. This depends on the map in ut99 as it could be the belt+100a on deck, belt+50a on curse. This applies in 2k4 and ut3 as well, however the latter attempted to “fix” the system by addressing max stack. Overall I would argue that it was a buff to control in ut3.
This is control because having these two items give you significant stack advantage over your opponent. Having belt while your opponent has 100a gives you a stack advantage over your opponent.
Watching ut4 casters/youtubers talk about control being lost when a player who has taken the last X belt/100a pickups takes heavy damage is annoying. Stack, itself, is not control – the opponent needs to capitalise and take the next pickups for.. this is where the post stops.
Game Economies